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Talk:Dragon Ball Z: Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan
Place in Timeline I really think that, despite the movie claiming to take place within the 10 day period, something still needs to be mentioned in regards to the fact that the movie itself contradicts said claims. In both the manga, and anime, the whole world is shown to be waiting in fear of the upcoming Cell Games yet the beginning scenes with Goku and Chi-Chi, from Movie 8, clearly show contradictory scenes as it shows not only Chi-Chi acting "out of character" (in comparison to how she was during the Cell Saga that is (IE Chi-Chi agreeing to hold back on Gohan's studies until after the Android/Cell threat was over)), but it also contradicts what was already established in both the anime and manga in regards to the general population. The movie clearly shows Chi-Chi, Goku, and several hundred people, waiting in line at a prestigious college, to be interviewed so they could get their kids into it. If the movie really did take place during the 10 day period like the movie claims, then this would not be the case at all. Then there are the scenes with the Z-Fighters partying. The fact Vegeta's there further contradicts the movie's opening statement as, if the Cell Games really were coming up, Vegeta, with the way his character was up till that point, would more than likely be training for the Cell Games instead of "partying" with the others. Then there's the fact that the third Broli movie can't be placed into the established anime/manga timeline. If the third Broli Movie were a stand-alone movie then this wouldn't be a problem. The fact that it is not however, is where the problem lies. The third Broli movie, along with the second one, are both direct continuations of the original one and if the third one can't fit in any way, shape or form, then by extension, neither do the others. I understand some could try to argue that if GT, with its many contradictions, can fit and be considered "anime-canon", then "Bio Broli" not fitting shouldn't play a part in this but therein lies the problem. GT technically ended the series and was a continuation of an already existing series, Z. It wasn't trying to place itself into the middle of an already established timeline, rather, it was tacked onto the end. The movies on the other hand do just that. Each movie tries to fit into the already existing timeline of DBZ. Now most of the movies are stand-alone, and have no continuations, so if one doesn't fit but another does then thats fine and dandy. In the case of the ones that have sequels, however, I feel they should be taken as a whole, instead of as "individual movies" when trying to place them into the timeline which is why "Bio Broli" not fitting means the others can't fit as well, despite what movie 8's opening narration may have originally intended. 11:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC) :But because Bio Broly is the final film in the Broly saga, one could argue that the first two Broly films 'happened' while the third was simply a 'what if' story about Broly returning again.--Megatronacepticon 10:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC) ::Ok we get it. '-- bulletproof' 22:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC) :::Yeah, the Bio-Broly part was definitely a "What if" story, because not only does it contradict some things in the Anime canon, it even contradicts things from the Broly saga as well. For instance, Maloja, despite having been ousted from the village prior to the fight with Broly knew a lot about the Legendary Super Saiyan for unknown reasons. And even if there was an explaination, he certainly wouldn't be allowed into the village for any circumstance, especially not to get any blood from the impact crater just a few yards away. Goten and Trunks recognized the Bio-warrior in the tank as being Broly, when they have never seen his base form, and thus shouldn't really know that it's him. Lastly, Maloja was nowhere near the climax of the fight against Broly plus, he shouldn't even know that he's dead. heck, he shouldn't even know that Broly even exists.. Also, Somehow, Lord Jaguar also knows Broly as well, seeing how he assigned Maloja to get a sample of his blood (He shouldn't even know about Broly, as he wasn't even present in the battle.) Again, its not only Movie 11 that contradicts the opening narration, but the very beginning of Movie 8 itself. Watch it again sometime and you'll notice that it clearly doesn't fit with what the opening narration states. Firstly, not only is Goku waiting with ChiChi to be interviewed so that Gohan can enter a prestigious school, but so are thousands of other people. If the movie did indeed take place before the Cell Games, that wouldn't be the case as, before the Cell Games occurred the whole world was practically in panic. There's also the plain and simple fact that the only reason Goku doesn't want to be there is because he's bored. If it really took place before the Cell Games, Goku would more than likely be trying his hardest to convince ChiChi that he and the others should be instead preparing for Cell, and not wasting time waiting in line with other people who, if the movie really fit, wouldn't be there. In fact, IIRC, the when Goku's told about Broli, he immediately leaves and is happy at the prospect of having a strong opponent to fight, further indication that there is no threat on the horizon (IE Cell). Second, there's the whole thing with the karaoke picnic. It's not until after the Cell Saga that Vegeta starts to mellow out more, not before. Yet despite that, the movie itself shows him hanging around (albeit off a ways) with the others at the picnic itself. If the movie itself really took place before the Cell Games then Vegeta, with the attitude he had then, would more than likely not even be there, but rather, off somewhere else training even further. Also, the others wouldn't even be partying in the first place as they've seen how strong Cell is, and know how terrifying he can be. They know he's an actual threat and not something to be taken lightly. These points are too big to ignore, and clearly contradict the opening narration, not in words, but in the actions of the characters themselves. Also, if you want to go even further, Movie 10 itself doesn't fit either, and in this case, its rather simple why. At the end of the movie the dragon balls fly off as if though they've been used. Even though the dragon didn't appear, it seems as if though a wish was granted through them. This means that only 1 of the 2 wishes were used at the time and since the 2nd wish was never used, the dragon balls can be reactivated in 6 months time to use the 2nd wish. Now then, with that in mind, based on the character appearances in the movie (Videl with her hair short etc.), the only place it might be able to fit would be before the 25th Budokai, sometime after Gohan had trained Videl how to fly, and possibly while he was training with Goten. The Budokai itself was just a few months away, and during the day the tournament was held, not only does Vegeta get possessed and kill off a couple hundred spectators, but Shenlong was summoned and 1 of the 2 wishes was used to revive the people Vegeta had killed at the tournament. And that's where the problem itself arises. If Movie 10 did indeed take place, then the dragon balls themselves would still be inactive and they wouldn't be able to use them to make that first wish and revive the people Vegeta had killed. Even if you tried to argue that 6 months had passed between Broli's revival and the tournament, it still doesn't take into account that, after Shenlong was summoned and the first wish was made, the second wish was still available. I agree now that Movie 11 was more like a "what-if" scenario for Broli, and it really can't be used in this discussion. The other two movies however, do contain contradictions (in Movie 8's case, right after the statement about when it supposedly takes place no less) that altogether are simply too big to ignore. 00:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC) :True, but then again, it's not like the anime or even the manga have made big contradictions before (Cell's revival explaination in both the japanese Anime and the Manga says hi). : I'm reposting this from the Legendary Super Saiyan page. : It's also likely that after defeating Cell, Gohan and Goku stopped being full power (24/7) super saiyans - I imagine ChiChi would demand this, because her dislike of Gohan fighting, and her opinion on their hair color. That would explain why they weren't 24/7SS when fighting Broly. Which I think might place this movie as after fighting Cell. : There's also a possibility that, since his SSJ2 transformation is so new, and he hasn't been allowed to practice, he has difficulty performing it. Evidence for this is shown later in the series, when Gohan has trouble going SSJ2 (see the other page's comments for details). : Now you might be thinking "But wait, Future Trunks was there, so it had to be during the Cell Games". Not so. If you remember the episode where Future Trunks killed Cell in his own timeline, what was he doing right before killing cell? He was getting ready to get in his time machine and go back in time, to tell the Z Fighters that he had killed the androids. He wouldn't be telling the past Z-Warrios that he killed the androids until after they had killed cell (if he had done that before they killed him, there would have been two trunks at once) : Also, as to Goku being alive, there was a lot we didn't see between Cell and Buu. For all we know, Goku could have been wished back after the dragon balls became active, then died (or killed himself or something) to go train in Other world'. 02:46, August 3, 2010 (UTC)]]' :: I don't think you understand how the dragonballs work, Brent, so I'll just ignore that statement. This first movie in the Broly series seems to make most sense as an alternate reality in which Cell had died before the Cell Games due to Gohan's lack of Super Saiyan 2 and the more peaceful people of Earth. Cell's death most likely would have been due to Vegeta's use of Final Flash against Perfect Cell had he not dodged. Chichi is also interested in getting Gohan into school, a motif further expanded upon during the Great Saiyaman Saga. Krillin is further evidence of this different timeline when he sings his love song at the picnic, a symbol of his loss of love at first sight, Android 18, when she was destroyed with Cell. The only flaw that I know of is the presence of Future Trunks, who would probably have been long gone to destroy the Androids in his timeline but it is possible that this happens at the same time Bojack Unbound would have occurred with the lack of Bojack of course. The second movie, although is related to the first and may seem , probably cannot be put into the same continuity due to Goku being dead, although it could possibly be accurate due to the lack of Android 18 to be seen anywhere. This contradicts the third movie, which she is a major part of, but as detailed prior it would be inaccurate to place the movie in the same reality as the two before or in the normal canon. 23:55, April 22, 2011 (UTC) :::Thinking of an alternate reality is full of speculation, and also you introduce inconsistencies with the other Broly movies. All the movies can be placed in the main continuity. About Krillin's love song, 18 was lost during the 10 days prior to Cell Games as she was inside Cell's body with nobody knowing Cell could have regurgitate her. It is evedenced in the series that Chi-Chi cares more about getting Gohan into school than saving the Earth. I've recentmy rewath Second Coming, and we never see Maloja beeing ousted from the village; I don't know from where comes this idea?? Also Maloja is a Shaman, even if he was wrong about the human sacrifice, if people of Natade followed him it must be that he had some mystical power (he wouldn't have been the only one, this is very common in the series) and also he could have just watch the fight against Broly which took place near Natade Village. Jeangabin666 06:52, April 23, 2011 (UTC) ::::It's not stated in Second Coming that he was ousted from the village, but it was stated in Bio-Broly. Weedle McHairybug 10:51, June 5, 2011 (UTC) ::::It can't realy place in the 10 day period. Goku and Gohan suprise the other with their power in the cell games. But they show their power in the movie. so don't they fight with full power or what? Also the Super Saiyans problem--07:59, October 9, 2011 (UTC) Broly Triple Feature Im just curious, for the uncut remastered Triple feature set, does the remastered version of "Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan" use the song Eternal Sacrifice as the intro as it did in the original release, or did they replace it with that other crappy instrumental they used for all 291 episodes? 04:24, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Japanese dub I've corrected some information to the page and reverting vandalism. The Japanese version DOES NOT say that it takes place during the wait before the Cell Games. I don't know who started that, but it's completely false. Also, Broly DOES NOT destroy the galaxy, at least not all of it in one shot. The whole movie takes place in the South Galaxy, Goku teleports through the galaxy, et cetera, and the lines in the opening sequence and King Kai's statements in the English dub are different from the Japanese. The Japanese lines are that the galaxy is merely under attack and King Kai shows us that it's *being* attacked, not that it's "all gone." I'm editing the canonocity section, fixing the summary regarding galaxy destruction, and adding to the trivia section a statement about the difference in dubs so more people don't falsely believe Broly's a galaxy-buster. If anyone needs quotes from the original dub I can supply them. 06:12, January 12, 2011 (UTC) :Whoever wrote this, please sign your posts. As for the time before the Cell Games, it is completely true. This is because Gohan is teenage and Super Saiyan, and Goku is alive. As for the dub, this is the English DB Wiki, so that is the version we use, please read the Manual of Style for details. In any case, nowhere on the article does it say that Broly destroyed a galaxy. Finally, you'll need to provide a reference to that fact being widely believed if you'd like to post that, since real-life issued cannot be directly derived from the film (see the Rules page). 03:15, January 12, 2011 (UTC) ::It shouldn't matter where you want to place the film. The wiki clearly is telling readers that it DOES take place during the 10 days, that it is STATED in the original Japanese dub. Well that's NOT true. I removed that because it's a lie, and we shouldn't be spreading misinformation to readers. English wiki or not, you're SPECIFICALLY referencing the original Japanese, and you're referencing it wrong. ::"Though it is absent from the Funimation dub, the opening narration in the Japanese version of the film states that Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan takes place during the ten-day wait prior to the Cell Games." ::I can give you scans or clips if you want proving that nothing... no-thing... is said about the Cell Games in movie 8. Cell isn't even mention either. That's because it doesn't fit into the canon timeline. If it did Goku wouldn't tell Gohan to run when, if he were post-ROSAT, he'd be the strongest fighter there with the best chance of winning. Gohan had the weakest showing in the film. It doesn't fit into the timeline, and it's great and all if you want to add a blurb about it possibly being fit in this saga or that, but it doesn't justify undoing edits that remove blatant lies about dub lines. And it did say Broly destroyed the galaxy in the first paragraph of the film summary. I changed it to say Broly attacked the galaxy instead of destroying it. Regardless, do you concede that the canonocity section needs to be changed at least to remove the portion about the opening narration at least? :: 06:12, January 12, 2011 (UTC) So you still did not undo any vandalism, and you need to edit properly by using edit summaries, as is outlined on the standards page. I'll fix the blurb about it being said in the Japanese version. Originally, since you edited improperly by not using edit summaries, I did not know that was the issue. Please read the rules, standards, and manual of style before editing the articles, as is requested on the top of the site main page. I also still don't see anything about the galaxy bit being widely believed. I do concede that the article contains a minor error, but everything else you did was wrong. Here's the paragraph: "While at a hanami picnic, during a painful singing session courtesy of Krillin, a massive ship arrived. Out came Paragus, one of the few surviving Saiyans. He invited Vegeta to rule a new Planet Vegeta. Vegeta initially refused until Paragus appealed to Vegeta's ego by asking him to kill the Legendary Super Saiyan that had completely destroyed the south galaxy." It does not say that Broly destroyed the galaxy. 06:27, January 12, 2011 (UTC) :In case anyone was wondering why I claimed it was in the Japanese Dub, it's because I remembered several people on TV.com claiming that it was stated there that it took place in the 10-day wait. Weedle McHairybug 10:55, June 5, 2011 (UTC) Edited DVD Version What is the difference between the uncut and edited versions of this movie? Super Saiyan Historian 05:28, December 21, 2011 (UTC) MAX POWER Kamehameha As you know, before Goku and company engage LSSJ Broly Master Roshi is shown powering up to his MAX Power form and begins to charge a MAX Power Kamehameha. In the original Japanese dub saying "Ka...Me...Ha..M-" before transitioning into his comedy routine. Should this be added to the page? False Super Saiyan Jake (talk) 02:38, May 9, 2014 (UTC) Timeline placement and SSJ/ASSJ claims Saying this movie takes place during the 10 day wait is a baseless claim, no? Can someone link me to the Daizenshuu 6, right now there's not even a source on the page. Movies are not made to fit into the real timeline and saying this movie takes place during the 10 day wait becuase it potentially could, is pure conjecture. Unless there is a source, this is no reason to say that it does, but it could. Another thing seems to be someone keeps changing Future Trunks and Vegeta to Super Saiyan in "Battles" instead of Ascended Super Saiyan. Vegeta and Trunks do use ASSJ in this movie, look at the character design below. The text in the bottom right translates to "Super Vegeta" and here's Trunks (notice the bulky muscles) it's also noticeable that his jacket rips off when he transforms. So again, if someone could show a linked, solid evidence for this taking place during the 10 day wait, it shouldn't say it does. There is a lot of proof to this being in an alternate universe completely. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 07:09, November 22, 2014 (UTC) :Vegeta's text says "Super Vegeta Super Saiyan", and Future Trunks' text says "Trunks Super Saiyan". So Trunks' definetly isnt, not sure about Vegeta, but his regular Super Saiyan form has been called Super Vegeta ("No Victory for Android 19! Enter Super Vegeta!)", and considering it is labeled Super Saiyan, it is likely it's just that. Daizenshuu 6 has timeline placements for all of the movies, and it says Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan takes place in the wait for the Cell Games.Neffyarious (talk) 10:13, November 22, 2014 (UTC) Don't you see the muscle mass? No SSJ is bulky like that. Super Vegeta is just a line that Vegeta called himself during his fight with 19, but if referring to his ASSJ form, that's a commonly used name like in Video Games, they wouldn't have wrote Super Vegeta if he wasn't ASSJ. Also it's worth noting these designs are taken from the Imperfect/Perfect Cell sagas, when Vegeta and Trunks were using that form. Also note that ASSJ never got an official name in the show, only in video games and guidebooks, so Super Saiyan could be referring to their SSJ forms. I really don't see how thw abovr pictures could look like normal SSJ. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 15:12, November 22, 2014 (UTC) :I agree with Neffyarious in regards to timeline. The Manual of Style lists accepted sources, and Daizenshuu 6 counts as it is an official guide book. With no opposing official sources claiming a different time period, I don't see why we might think it is set in a different period. 17:59, November 22, 2014 (UTC) I agree that Vegeta and Trunks look 2GSS, it's just that every official source says they are just SS. Daizenshuu 6 also references Trunks as "going Super Saiyan" in the movie, in Budokai Tenkaichi 2, Vegeta and Trunks are also just SS in the game's version of this movie, despite their further forms being in the game.--Neffyarious (talk) 02:35, November 23, 2014 (UTC) :I think they look like grade 2 as well. I tend to side with the official source though, even over my own opinion. 06:45, November 23, 2014 (UTC) Where is the artwork from? It's source may have more info.--Neffyarious (talk) 10:23, November 23, 2014 (UTC) :Considering the standard SSJs don't rip the upper clothing to shreds when transforming (standard clothing, not Saiyan armor), whether the Daizenshuu 6 states that it is simply a Super Saiyan or not is irrelevant (even official sources make mistakes at times, like claiming that Reacoome had a higher power level than Goku (who at that time when at full power was at 180,000), despite Jeice when scanning him with his scouter saying that "Reacoome didn't stand a chance" before Goku even got halfway through accessing his full power), because it was clearly SSJ 2nd Grade, at least with Trunks. As far as the artworks, it might be from the Daizenshuu, but yeah, let's wait until the guy comes back to tell us where (s)he got them from. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:13, November 26, 2014 (UTC) Timeline placement.. again "I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them." - Akira Toriyama I got the above quote from Kanzenshuu, who translated a Daizenshuu 6 interview. I have yet to find a translated Daizenshuu 6 in it's entirety but, the Daiz also says Movie 4 (Lord Slug) takes place around when the battle of Frieza would take place, but it doesn't actually. The Lord Slug page also follows up with a paragraph pointing out why that is wrong. But there isn't one for this page? There are many things about this movie (Goku and Gohan not being in MSSJ state the whole time) (Trunks and Vegeta using ASSJ form) (Gohan wearing his artificial human arc clothing, and appearing younger than he did in the Cell Games) (No mention of Cell, and people casually applying their children to a school when they thought the Earth would end in 10 days) that could indicate it being a completely alternate universe. Again this potentially could fit in to that time era, but there a lot of things off about it. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 18:06, November 22, 2014 (UTC) :I see your point, and I agree with your interpretation of Toriyama's quote. Please understand, when we talk about timeline placement, we are not trying to say anything about continuity, canon, etc. Fans that learn of this movie will naturally ask, "When is this movie set? Did Frieza come yet? Can Goku use Super Saiyan 3?". The Timeline Placement section is an answer to that question, giving guidance to readers. They should expect Vegeta and Trunks to have just learned to use their new transformations, Goku and Gohan might be full power, Frieza is long gone, and Buu's not here yet. From this point of view, we are looking to tell fans what the best time period is to consider the movie in. Daizenshuu 6 answers this for us. Saying it "could" take place at that time is just adding confusion, especially with no alternative. The readers gain nothing from that. 18:15, November 22, 2014 (UTC) I also agree that it's easier if you think of parallel universes, you can see where I think each movie goes in my blog, but that's not the purpose of the timeline placement section. It is there so people can know where in the timeline the movie goes, setting aside all discrepancies with the "main" timeline. 21:13, November 22, 2014 (UTC) ASSJ I still think we shoud put Vegeta and Trunks as 2nd grade SSJs. 2nd grade SSJ isn't necessarily a transformation, so it wouldn't be odd for a guide to say it's SSJ. Also, Vegeta's title says "Super Vegeta (Super Saiyan)". Vegeta is only called Super Vegeta once in his SSJ form by himself, every other time it is used is in his ASSJ form, even in video games. The movie itself shows Trunks' jacket rip off, and it shows Vegeta and Trunks bulky, I think the movie should have more weight over a guide book. Also note that the designs of this movie are from the Perfect Cell saga, when Trunks didn't change into his armor yet and when him and Vegeta still used grade 2. I think it's very clear that the transformation is ascneded SSJ, and that a guidebook shouldn't cancel that fact out, it's very clear in the movie. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 20:17, November 24, 2014 (UTC) :I agree with you on this one. Neffyarious asked you where that artwork is from. 20:33, November 24, 2014 (UTC) I got it from Kanzenshuu SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 20:38, November 24, 2014 (UTC) :FYI, that's a fan site. We'd have to know where they got it from. 01:27, November 25, 2014 (UTC) I too once argued that the 2GSS form was present in this movie and Bojack Unbound, but then another user (who seems to be gone now) stopped me due to the fact that I did not have any proving sources. I agree that the 2GSS forms are used by Trunks and Vegeta in the movie, it's just we need a legitimate source. These pieces of artwork could probably be taken as that source, if we knew exactly where they came from.--Neffyarious (talk) 02:07, November 25, 2014 (UTC) So did you get the source? Where on Kazenshuu did you find it?Neffyarious (talk) 14:52, December 11, 2014 (UTC) *I got it, Daizenshuu 6, i'll add it in to the pages.Neffyarious (talk) 08:02, May 15, 2015 (UTC) Question I haven't seen this. If Future Trunks is in this, how is Gohan still a child? Did Future Trunks go back in time again?-- 11:03, May 24, 2015 (UTC) :Yes. 12:03, May 24, 2015 (UTC)